alephnul ([info]alephnul) wrote,
@ 2006-01-09 03:56:00
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BDSM (reposted comment from Alas)
[This is a comment I wrote on a thread on BDSM and patriarchy on Alas, but I'm pretty pleased with it, and comments are a fragile thing, so I thought I'd repost it here as a well. I think it stands okay on its own, but here it is in context.]

Is BDSM better, equal-to, or worse than non-BDSM sexuality. Actually, that is a crappy way of phrasing it, and much less productive and nuanced than the way bean actually phrased it. Bean's point was much more complex than that, but I think I can say something useful with this simplified version, so here goes.

I think that BDSM sexuality, independent of any other criteria, is a more harmful sexuality than non-BDSM sexuality. Specifically, I think that an eroticization of mutuality is a better and healthier sexuality than an eroticization of power dynamics (power-over, powerlessness, violence and pain). Furthermore, while I can see other sources for an eroticization of power dynamics, I think the overwhelming source of the eroticization of power dynamics in this culture is patriarchy (actually, I think the triple alliance of sex oppression, class oppression and race oppression are heavily implicated, but sex oppression is most heavily implicated). I think that if you have, or are able to develop, a sexuality of mutuality, then you should value it highly. I think taking up BDSM practice because it is cool is a bad mistake if you have or are capable of developing a truly mutual sexuality. I think in the ideal world, there would be no eroticization of power dynamics, and no BDSM sexuality. I think in a moderately ideal world (one where people still suffer through a childhood of relative powerlessness (but not abuse), where people still suffer from painful diseases, where people still fear death and loss, but where sex, class, and race oppression is banished) that eroticization of power dynamics would be far more rare.

I think that the best safe-sane-consensual, active-consent, egalitarian-based BDSM sexuality is still a product of a sick culture, and I think anything less than that ideal is probably harmful to its participants.

That said, I think safe-sane-consensual BDSM practice is vastly better than the current alternative. If I eroticize power dynamics, I am going to play with them for sexual gratification. If I deny this desire, all I end up doing is pushing it underground. I’m still going to play those games, I’m just going to lie to myself and my partner and pretend that’s not what I’m doing. As a result, I’m going to have to play with the real thing, rather than being able to play with the fake thing. If I want a D/S experience, I will have to actually dominate or submit to someone. If I want a S/M experience, I will have to actually torture someone, or find someone to torture me (D/S is much more common in this culture, I think, but there are way too many sadists too, coming up with some excuse to inflict pain).

To my mind, this is what most people in this culture do. Most of them aren’t extreme in their practice, but I see the basic cultural construct of romance as implicit D/S, and I think most people who do romance do it in large part because they eroticize D/S.

I had a friend long ago who explained to me that it offended her that her boyfriend (a better friend of mine) explicitly refused to be possessive, and while he was perfectly happy to be faithful if that was her preference, refused to request that she be monogamous. She explained to me that she actually usually cheated on her boyfriends, but that a non-possessive boyfriend was both insulting and meant that the cheating sex wouldn’t be nearly as a hot. While she was impressively honest, I really don’t believe her desires were at all strange for this culture.

To my mind, she would have been better off if she hadn’t found betrayal and being a possession hot, but I think those structures of desire are hard to reconstruct. If she wasn’t able to reconstruct them, I think she would have been much better off accepting those desires as hers, accepting them as malign, and finding ways to funnel and restrict them, so that she could extract their hotness without getting as badly burned (and without burning her boyfriend). I think that safe-sane-consensual BDSM is a way of doing that.

I have met (to a little extent, I have been one) BDSM supremacists, who believe that BDSM sexuality is more honest than non-BDSM sexuality, because everyone’s sexuality is actually an eroticization of power dynamics. I think they have a point (I think most people in this culture do eroticize power to some degree), but I think they are basically wrong. I think honest egalitarian sexuality, for those who can reach it, is better than power dynamics sexuality. But I think safe-sane-consensual BDSM practice is a better, less harmful expression of eroticizing power dynamics than either non-SSC BDSM or implicit BDSM. And, for those who strongly eroticize power dynamics, I think that SSC BDSM may be either a useful end point, or a useful way point on the way to an egalitarian eroticization of mutuality.

This last point is one that both Thomas and mythago have expressed here and previously. Good SSC BDSM culture emphasizes the critical point that active consent and communication are themselves hot, and that sex that moves away from both of those is bad sex, and is not at all hot. When BDSM practitioners reach the point where they eroticize active consent and communication, they are actually moving into an egalitarian sexuality.

I’m going on way too long, so I’ll stop.



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[info]kiplet
2006-01-09 08:22 pm UTC (link)
I never remember if you've read Delany's criticism or not.

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[info]alephnul
2006-01-09 08:47 pm UTC (link)
I have.

I've read Shorter Views.

I've never read Longer Views or Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, which would probably be relevant as well.

I have read The Mad Man, which is certainly relevant.

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[info]kiplet
2006-01-10 08:46 am UTC (link)
It just seems to me that conceptualizing a sexuality wholly mutual that is separate from or on a different track than a sexuality conscious of power relations is, well, problematic. You don't, with the one hand, but you do, with the other, and your basic rhetorical structure.

Longer Views, not as much; Red and Blue, from a larger, societal, big-picture perspective. Mad Man I haven't myself read yet. Nor Hogg neither.

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[info]alephnul
2006-01-10 01:33 pm UTC (link)
I don't know, I would prefer to think that it is possible. Its tricky, though. A sexuality that is not conscious of power dynamics is probably just a sexuality that pretends power dynamics don't exist, which I think is the worst of all worlds, particularly in an entrenched power dynamics rich society.

Okay, here it is: I think a sexuality that doesn't eroticize power dynamics is conceivable (I think there are people who have such a sexuality). That doesn't mean that they are blind to power dynamics, it doesn't mean that they never allow even the hint of power dynamics to be present in their sexual practice, it means that the power dynamics are not eroticized, that they are not sought out and amplified. It means that the frisson of sex comes from being so close to someone, or of giving freely to a complete stranger (I don't think an egalitarian erotic rules out Delaney's preference for quicky anonymous sex), rather than from viewing penetration as power over (for example). That penetration looses the hotness of implicit domination doesn't mean that penetration must be eschewed because it could be seen as domination, it doesn't mean ignoring that penetration has an inherent violative aspect. It just means that isn't what makes it hot.

Over on Alas, I commented that the fact that I don't eroticize household objects doesn't limit my sexuality, nor does it mean that I am blind to the potential uses of household objects. It just means that household objects in my sexual practice do not excite me for being household objects. Power is not the same as household objects, but I don't accept that power is the inherent fetish object.

Does that make sense?

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[info]kiplet
2006-01-11 06:26 am UTC (link)

It’s not that power dynamics are an inherent fetish object, it’s that power dynamics are an inherent part of human interaction. It’s the water we swim in. A sexuality that eroticizes anything will find that thing to have a power dynamic to it. That power dynamic does not have to be sought ought or amplified, no, but it’s still there; an awareness of it serves to focus the attention, and focussing attention is (one small) part of what it is fetishes do, no?

When I say it’s problematic, I don’t mean the idea of a wholly mutual sexuality is problematic; I mean it’s problematic to conceptualize it as a right-hand path, over and away and separate from the left-hand path of overtly eroticized power. It’s a fine and worthy goal, but you can reach it—well, it’s asymptotic, I think, so you can reach toward it—from many different directions.

I’m hardly a BDSM supremacist, myself; I tend to think of it as an experimental space, in which particular aspects of a chaotically contingent environment are carefully controlled: in these precisely delineated laboratory conditions, subject A will always respond to stimulus B in mode C... Masking slippery particular power dynamics with cartoonishly broad swipes at general power dynamics (or subversions thereof) lets some more easily leave the particular behind (leave the phenomenal and enter the sublime); grants some certainty, others license. There’s nothing inherent in that to keep one from realizing a wholly mutual sexuality.

Mostly, I’m thinking of “The Rhetoric of Sex/The Discourse of Desire,” from Shorter Views. (Also, the opening central conceit of the Neverÿon books.) —That treats with BDSM as a marginalized, other sexuality, and there’s a bit with an angry ventriloquized puppet that I’ve quoted before, which is pissed off to a certain extent that an erotic built around power could ever be tamed, or maybe I should say assimilated. —I’m also thinking of this passage:

The power involved in desire is so great that when caught in an actual rhetorical manifestation of desire—a particular sex act, say—it is sometimes all but impossible to untangle the complex webs of power that shoot through it from various directions, the power relations that are the act and that constitute it.

Which, well, yeah. That’s the welter the clarity of BDSM controls and tames: and I’m sitting here on the verge of an RPG analogy—whether you play as you’ve always played because that’s the way you play, or whether you openly and forthrightly negotiate the rules together, beforehand or as you go, or whether you even play at all. —It’s getting late.

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[info]alephnul
2006-01-11 08:39 am UTC (link)
On the RPG side, which I think is certainly valid (Sarah has been talking about sexuality as narrative, I keep trying to convince her to write it up and post it somewhere), have you read Mo's piece on push and pull as game play structures? I think it is relevant.

Eroticizing power dynamics (power-over, powerlessness, violence, pain) is like focusing your gaming on push dynamics, eroticizing power-to dynamics (communication, intimacy, invitation, shared pleasure) is like focusing your games on pull dynamics.

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Bed of Nails
[info]skelkins
2006-01-12 04:25 am UTC (link)
Sorry if this comes across as tetchy. I always find these discussions both frustrating and alienating, and I find articulating my reasons for finding them so difficult - which of course just leads to more frustration. Hence the cranky tone.

"It’s not that power dynamics are an inherent fetish object, it’s that power dynamics are an inherent part of human interaction."

So are lots of things which you don't see fetishized to the same extent.

Hell, communication is far more central to human interaction than power imbalances are - and yet far more people seem to fetishize power imbalances than do communication. In fact, there's this weird cliche of romantic fiction that relies for its effect on audience consensus that communication itself is somehow inherently...anti-sexy? Or something. I guess. (I admit that I've never really understood that entire thing at all, but I presume that it makes sense to most people, since the cliche endures.)

"A sexuality that eroticizes anything will find that thing to have a power dynamic to it."

As well as a host of other types of dynamics, most of which are not eroticized.

See, this is where these discussions always lose me. They often seem to me to have this distinct "when all you have is a hammer..." quality to them, and it's one that makes me feel far more alienated than engaged.

I mean, sure, I guess you can view all human interaction as fundamentally about power dynamics. Lots of people do. But you can also view them as all fundamentally about linguistics, or as all fundamentally about the exchange of memetics, or as all fundamentally about the mutual creation of imaginary universes, or as...well, a whole bunch of different paradigms, none of which are eroticized to anywhere near the same extent as power imbalances are.

In fact, human interaction involves all of those things. It's not "fundamentally" about any single one of them. Yet only one of them is so consistently and obsessively eroticized. So, yeah, it does make sense to me to wonder "why is this thing so widely eroticized, while this thing and this thing are not?," and honestly, "well, because this thing exists as a part of human interaction" really just doesn't cut it as an explanation. Lots of things exist as fundamental aspects to human interaction. By no means all of them are widely eroticized.

"The power involved in desire is so great that when caught in an actual rhetorical manifestation of desire—a particular sex act, say—it is sometimes all but impossible to untangle the complex webs of power that shoot through it from various directions..."

Hammer and nail again. How does the "power involved in desire" translate into interpersonal power games when the "actual rhetorical manifestation of desire" is masturbation? What precisely are the power dynamics there?

The traditional answer to that question (and I'm not saying that it is your answer, or even Delaney's answer - just that it is the traditional one given) is to redefine "sex" to mean only such situations in which there (a) are two people involved, and (b) one party has reason to desire the sex a helluva lot more than the other one. In other words, to redefine "sex" to refer only to sexual encounters in which there is going to be an inherent power imbalance.

Which brings us right back to hammer and nail.

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Re: Bed of Nails
[info]alephnul
2006-01-13 12:07 am UTC (link)
Just noticed the icon.

Creepy fucking icon.

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Re: Bed of Nails
[info]skelkins
2006-01-13 12:24 am UTC (link)
Have you found the Yellow Sign?

I nabbed it from the website that [info]amberite foolishly revealed discovered here.

It's now the icon I use whenever something makes me feel even more than usual as if I must come from another planet.

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Re: Bed of Nails
(Anonymous)
2006-01-13 08:11 am UTC (link)
Also popping over from 'Alas'. Interesting comments indeed and I understand the hammer and nails thingy. I've gone as far back in my head as to wonder what the process of eroticisation actually is at the level of seccsual orientation itself. (sorry, no functioning letter 'eccs' on keyboard.)

Isn't that mostly an involuntary eroticising of a whole seccs, or both secces by degree in the case of bi-seccsual persons? Then on top of that comes the stuff of this conversation. And what about just the 'power' in the first blushes of attraction when something as small as the way the light reflects off the teeth of the desired person produces that eccsquisite tenderness in the belly? The 'power' in just the intentional gaze of the desired person from across a room that could slide you down a wall? How could we eccstract power from this and still have attraction? Also, how would one go about consciously eroticising mutuality in place of power dynamics? When two people are still 'in love', as we understand the term, that kind of mutuality, warmth/heat of just the intimacy, the closeness and the joyful wonder at the level of intensity, is just 'there'. It's not something we can deliberately and consciously create. In fact it's been my ecsperience that familiarity causes those feelings to diminish and their gradual disappearance is no more within our control than their sudden arrival was. Ultimately. We can prolong their stay with certain strategies, but for most of us, (I'm prepared to believe not all of us...) sooner or later, they go.

I guess in conclusion, for me, while all this is very interesting, and it's good to be conscious of power dynamics in relationships and in relation to society, it's social and political systems rather than people that urgently need to be re-constructed to eliminate power inequalities. Necessary changes in peoples behaviour towards one another will be more easily achieved with that focus.

cicely (in case my name doesn't appear...)

p.s. I am a techno-novice, so if an icon appears anywhere, I won't know where it came from....;)

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Re: Bed of Nails
[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-13 12:49 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to send you the money myself to get you a new keyboard if that eccs key doesn't start working sooner or later!

Sorry to hear you're a victim of the sex wars. Some needs to have a parade or memorial or something for all the women who were hurt by that period in lesbian history.

More later. Must shower, then scoot ...

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Re: Bed of Nails
(Anonymous)
2006-01-13 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Thanks FCH - and you're not wrong. We could have quite a parade...

Replacement keyboard is almost here.

cicely



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Re: Bed of Nails
[info]alephnul
2006-01-14 09:42 am UTC (link)
The thing is, that exciting first flush of romance and desire, when lust and fear of it being unrequited mix in this fantastic hot stew is only this fantastic hot stew if you eroticize power. Otherwise, it is this sickening dread weighing down on your hope that you will get past it to a requited and comfortable stage of mutual understanding and communication of desire.

The power dynamics of sex are only hot if you eroticize the power dynamics of sex, otherwise they are only a bother.

Agreed though that trying to change peoples erotics is probably worth less than trying to change the actual fixed power inequalities of society, although I do think they are inter-twined, with eroticization of power inequalities supporting the permanent power inequalities, at the same time that the permanent inequalities drive the eroticization of power dynamics.

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The only way to win is not to play...
[info]skelkins
2006-01-17 01:50 am UTC (link)
The thing is, that exciting first flush of romance and desire, when lust and fear of it being unrequited mix in this fantastic hot stew is only this fantastic hot stew if you eroticize power. Otherwise, it is this sickening dread weighing down on your hope that you will get past it to a requited and comfortable stage of mutual understanding and communication of desire.

I confess that I was rather startled to see how well you described my own erotic preferences here. I know that I've described them to you in the past, but it's still amazing to me that you, y'know, "got" it that well, since I know that you don't particularly share them yourself.

This, though:

The power dynamics of sex are only hot if you eroticize the power dynamics of sex, otherwise they are only a bother.

They're worse than a "bother" for me, though. For me, they're an active squick. Cold water on the libido. Floating in a swimming pool full of dead and rotting eels.

I don't find the infatuation stage of sexual interest "sexy," primarily because it's usually filled with all of these so-called "vanilla" d/s dynamics that are a total turn-off for me. It's probably one of the reasons that I sympathize so heavily with the asexuality movement: because society insists that everything that I actually find erotic is only achievable by first enduring all of this icky, squicky "ow, someone just threw a bucket of cold water right on top of my libido!" stuff.

"Flirtation" is a particular turn-off for me. It registers to me as basically just Rape Narrative Lite. There's nothing that makes me want to have sex with someone less than the feeling that they're imposing some sort of fucked-up hostile "heads I win, tails you lose" game on me, where my only "win condition" is to...not find them attractive.

Put bluntly, that's not a very challenging game for me.

In fact, the initiation of the game itself often more than suffices to hand me the "win condition" right off the bat.

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Re: Bed of Nails
[info]trinityva
2006-01-31 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Also, how would one go about consciously eroticising mutuality in place of power dynamics?

For me, I just find myself getting into insane knots when someone tells me these are mutually exclusive. It actually makes me feel a bit dumb, as if someone's told a joke whose punchline I've missed. I don't get how these two things are different in kind. I get how you can have mutuality in sex without power dynamics, sure. But all that means to me is that someone asked me to ignore the times they go together, and my mind gets flummoxed there. Why exactly am I supposed to pretend the middle of the Venn diagram ISN'T THERE? Especially when, to me, that's the most wonderful sex.

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[info]trinityva
2006-01-31 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Wandered over from here.

When I say it’s problematic, I don’t mean the idea of a wholly mutual sexuality is problematic; I mean it’s problematic to conceptualize it as a right-hand path, over and away and separate from the left-hand path of overtly eroticized power.

All I want to say is that I'd like to give you a cookie for that. I'm so tired of what, to me, feels like breaking my sexuality in half and going "doing THIS would be progressive and good" "doing THAT would be regressive and bad." It... just... doesn't compute. I understand all the critiques people make of BDSM and I actually agree with a lot of the criticisms, although I think they're much more about how patriarchy colors eroticizing power (which I think isn't inherently about patriarchy or anything else; it's funny how every hierarchy flattens to gender, and how heterocentrism in these discussions runs absolutely rampant in ways it often doesn't in other feminist space) than with an inherent problem.

But to me it's really really dualistic to decide that my clit getting hard over THIS means I'm a decent feminist and my clit getting hard over THAT means I just broke. Uh, not quite.

So thanks. Enjoy your cookie.

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[info]alephnul
2006-02-01 06:40 am UTC (link)
Is the heterosexism comment directed at the comment thread on I blame the Patriarchy, cause I get it about that. I don't get it about this discussion here.

You know, rereading this post again, with hindsight, and without the context of its originating thread, I can understand Kip's point better. This post, deprived of its original context, does come closer to treating eroticizing mutuality and eroticizing power as opposite poles than it should have.

So yes, obviously, it is possible to eroticize mutuality and power at the same time (actually, I said this in the piece, as well as saying that eroticizing power without eroticizing mutuality leads to very bad places very fast - if they were opposite poles, it wouldn't be possible to do both), but it is also possible to eroticize power or to not eroticize power, and I think that it is better to not eroticize power.

Now, I also think (and I think it is implied in this piece, although more explicit in the original thread) that there is not a whole lot you can do about what you eroticize (so I have found for myself anyway). You can only work with what you've got and make the best egalitarian sexual practice. Mostly, I think that that is more than enough. I think the best egalitarian SSC BDSM is so much better than the typical non-BDSM (and also than the typical BDSM) that worrying about the negative influence of the part you can't change is foolish. Far more important to look at all the ways in which your practice fails to be the best it can along axis that you can change.

On the heterosexism angle, I don't think that BDSM needs to be men topping women for it to be tied into the patriarchy. I think that the fetishization of power-over, violence and pain (and powerlessness) serves the structures of power no matter how you enact them (The master's tools can't be used to build anything except the master's house). If topping (or bottoming) is reaffirming and glorifying malign dynamics (and I think it is to some extent), then it doesn't matter who those dynamics exist between. Plenty of the patriarchy is enacted through what women do to women (and what women do to men) so why should sex be any different.

I also agree that not everything can be boiled down to gender, and that not every fetish involving power originates in the larger societal power structures. Your own desires deriving out of your disability and repeated major surgery certainly makes sense to me, and I suspect my partners fetishization of powerlessness also relates to her early childhood physical disabilities (her memory extends further back than her ability to walk, so I think she has an awareness of powerlessness as a fundamental experience that most people lack). My own eroticization of power (as a predominantly het male), however, certainly derives from the larger societal power structures. I think that makes my sexuality worse than yours, but I think what we do with our sexuality is more important than the origins of our sexuality (see my previous post on sexuality as fetish for much more on that).

I do agree however, that my original question (is it better to eroticize power or is it better not to?) is less important in some sense than the specific questions that you raise concerning the analysis of BDSM practice. However, I think that the analysis of BDSM practice pales in comparison to the importance of analyzing non-BDSM sexuality. I think the eroticization of power within non-BDSM sexuality is common as dirt, and leads to a world of hurt, so I think it is really the best focus. I keep meaning to write up a longer post on that (romance, PV penetrative sex, cheating, angry make-up sex as the non-BDSM non-SSC eroticization of power), but never do.

I note from your piece over on your on LJ about the Twisty thread that you are a BDSMer who understands Dworkin, to which I say "very cool!" I never understand why BDSMers have a problem with Dworkin (at least Intercourse, I haven't read that much of her writing beyond that).

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[info]alephnul
2006-01-10 01:34 pm UTC (link)
Also, its been a while since I read Shorter Views, so if it feels like I'm missing your point, I may be missing the reference. Please feel very free to remind me more specifically if I'm not getting it.

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[info]sinboy
2006-01-12 04:22 pm UTC (link)
Just logging over from Amp's blog. This is "Josh Jasper". Thanks for all of the good comments.

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[info]alephnul
2006-01-13 12:08 am UTC (link)
Glad you like them!

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[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-12 11:18 pm UTC (link)
And this is, uh, do I have to say who I am?

Couldn't y'all just figure it out?

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[info]alephnul
2006-01-13 12:09 am UTC (link)
Is it just me, or is that one seriously phallic sports car?

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[info]jakesquid
2006-01-13 04:03 am UTC (link)
If I have my recollections recollected rightly, that is THE penis car of all penis (sports) cars. Anyhow, I can't think of a penisier one right now.

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[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-13 04:34 am UTC (link)
I don't know if Corvettes are "the" penis car. I can tell you that it's 27 years old and leaks in the rain.

So ... it's pretty impressive, but even you could own one :)

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[info]jakesquid
2006-01-13 02:35 pm UTC (link)
Hey, my memory isn't all bad. I thought it was a 70's corvette, but the photo is small & I wasn't sure. It beats out the camaro for penisness, that's for sure. If it leaks in the rain, I'm guessing that it's a t-top. The camaro that my wife had w/ t-top also leaked in the rain. I suppose it leaked in the dry, too, but it was harder to tell when it was dry & sunny.

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(Dragster, take two)
[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-13 03:43 pm UTC (link)
(Images were too big, so I'm going to try again ...)

I thought I had a photo of my Corvette over on Photobucket, but all I have is a photo of Shirely Muldowney's dragster. Which I'm going to use to make some comments about "power" and how it's constructed. And also to feed the overall lust for images of penis cars that seems to exist :)

Here's her dragster. I had the privilege to watch her drive it about 300MPH once. Which was very cool --
Image hosted by Photobucket.com


And here she is. She's autographing something for me (I think it was an 8x10 photo of her and her car, but I haven't seen it around the house in about 20 years ...) --
Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Apropos the topic, I think that "cars" show how power is socially constructed. That me driving a Corvette has an entirely different meaning that a man driving a Corvette. And me driving a Corvette I paid $9,200 for somehow has the same power / status as someone like me driving a $50,000 Corvette.

I think that this is what feminists-opposed-to-BDSM are about. If Shirley or I derive, or don't derive, "power" from something that's really not that unique -- because a $9,200 Corvette isn't all that hard to acquire, assuming one is willing to put up with leaking T-Tops -- then what is "power", really?

Indeed, my reaction to BDSM, even as opposed to BDSM as I am, is more like "why don't they grow up and quit playing the sexual equivalent of ``cops and robbers''"? What is BDSM besides a fantasy role playing game? On the other hand, perhaps I'm jealous because I don't have sexual fantasies. I mean, even if I try to fantasize, I can't.

Over on Alas I briefly wrote about a former lover who once managed to tie me up. Rather than feeling that I'd given up any power, I felt like all I'd managed to do was waste time having my hands tied when I could have just as easily held onto the headboard of the bed. Which, when other women would suggest they tie me up is what I'd do. It's not an accident that I now have a four-poster bed.

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Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-13 03:44 pm UTC (link)
(And apparently I can't get the photos to come out the way I want them to even if I try really hard ...)

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Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]jakesquid
2006-01-13 04:13 pm UTC (link)
That brings up a very interesting point - well, several interesting things. First, the question of what power is/where power comes from/symbols of power. I can't even begin to answer that comprehensively. Tangentially, the privilege associated with (certain types of) power is brought in by your statement that a $9200 car is not all that hard to acquire.

Your last 2 paragraphs bring up (for me, anyway) the lack of understanding of BDSM that underlies a lot of the feminist criticism of BDSM that I have seen. Part of that lack is very understandable - unless you, as a woman, are the one bringing up the idea in a hetsex encounter it obviously mirrors the patriarchy (man wants (sexual) power over woman). When combined with a lack of knowledge about the ratios of men & women as doms/subs/tops/bottoms, that personal experience seems pretty damning to the whole concept.

The "why don't they grow up" reaction, it seems to me, displays a lack of knowledge. In your case you admit it is the inability to understand sexual fantasies a'tall. In other cases it is a lack of knowledge of human psychology or a lack of understanding that most people are very different from oneself as well as a lack of knowledge of what the dynamics within BDSM actually are.

While I think that it is valid (and possibly important) to analyze BDSM wrt compatibility w/ feminism, I don't think that it can be done without really having a good idea about how BDSM actually works and what it is that the coherent BDSM community practices & preaches. That is why, over on Alas, I considered many of your comments to be a distraction - your apparent ignorance of BDSM fueling (it seemed to me) claims of "BDSM baaad," rather than analysis or criticism coming from a feminist perspective.

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Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-13 09:11 pm UTC (link)
I think that there are really two kinds of BDSM -- the kind that I read about when I read these discussions on feminist boards, and the kind that happened when my X said "Hey, how about I tie you up?" or when another of my X's said "By the way, I have handcuffs".

The feminist discussions I've been a part of fall into some number of categories which seem to go along the lines of

  • BDSM immitates patriarchy, and for that reason, and that reason alone, it is bad, and we're not going to listen to you
  • BDSM, even if people say they are being "safe, sane, consensual", eventually winds up with someone being emotionally harmed
  • BDSM, even if it's the good kind, sets a bad example for other people who aren't anywhere near as enlightened or careful as you

I'm sure there are others, but since my position is the last one, I'm going to stop.

I think that in the straight-up "your kink is not okay with me" types of arguments comes from the misunderstanding that people can't or don't derive some kind of pleasure from pain or the fight-or-flight response that someone else mentioned.

In my case, I simply reject any argument that involves the phrase "BDSM community" because it's not like, say, the SCUBA diving community where unless you've got an air compressor in your house, sooner or later you're going to run into someone who wants proof that you really know what you're doing. BDSM might include a "community", but BDSM as a larger phenomenon isn't "the community" and no one has to show proof of "Sane, Sane, Consensual Compliance" when they buy a length of rope or a plastic spatula.

Outside of the "BDSM Community", BDSM is performed, and is called BDSM, by people who are way less enlightened than any of us, so this is where I focus my arguments. Does the reality of "rogue BDSM" (a term I just made up to refer to "BDSM which occurs outside of any community oversight) have any implications for the validity of "regulated BDSM" (meaning, BDSM which happens inside a community between people who abide by "safe, sane and consentual")? I think the answer is "Yes" and I believe this because my observation is that much is said about the "BDSM community" and how BDSM inside that community has "rules", but BDSM outside the community, and how BDSM outside the community benefits from arguments about BDSM being "safe, sane and consensual", seems to be dismissed. This was the point I was trying to make on Alas. I understand that there is a "BDSM Community", I just don't believe it is a net positive influence in the grand scheme of things. I'd actually argue that it's a net negative influence because of the lack of public education about "rogue BDSM".

Within the "BDSM Community"? Sure -- there are rules and safeguards, and except for my experience that masculine people (male or female) tend to top feminine people (male or female), and that Patriarchy has the same "masculinity equals dominance, femininity equals submission", there really isn't a lot of ground for me to look at BDSM from a particularly feminist perspective. I really do understand the psychological and physiological underpinnings of BDSM. I'm not bothered that some people enjoy receiving pain, or that others enjoy giving it. I understand that "pain" is just a sensation which results in a particular neurochemical response. I even understand that "pain" and "pleasure" can be very hard to separate for people who like pain. I used to be a cyclist and I know that there was a time in my life that cycling was an addiction, much like runners can experience running as an addiction.

But even if, as some claim, topping and masculinity aren't strongly correlated within the "BDSM Community", my experience is that outside the community there is a very strong correlation between the two, and that most often women are being physically and psychologically harmed by men. And that, as radical feminists love to say, "harms women".

Now, I'm not for the abolition of BDSM. I'm not even sure that's possible. What I would like to see is a much more open, much more mainstream public, discussion of what is "regulated BDSM", what is "rogue BDSM", and what is just plain old domestic violence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]jakesquid
2006-01-13 09:58 pm UTC (link)
FCH,

What I am hearing in your comment is not that BDSM is intrinsically harmful or not compatible w/ feminism, but that the practice of BDSM sexuality without knowledge and education is harmful.

Reading through what you have written, is BDSM really harmful? You seem to agree that when practiced as SSC BDSM, there isn't a problem. However, where the practice does not include the SSC guidelines great harm can result. I'm going to assume that this is a correct reading and respond accordingly. If I have misread, I apologize & am off on another line of thought.

Anyway... non-kink hetsex that is practiced without SSC results in great harm. The same with non-kink gaysex and any other kind of sex you can think of. If the problem is really that there can't be a discussion of SSC BDSM in the mainstream, you can hardly blame practitioners of BDSM (or BDSM, itself) for that.

In fact, your complaint mostly seems to be that people, women in particular, need to be aware of dangerous dynamics in their sexual relationships. Because we live in a patriarchal society, sexual relationships are likely to imitate the rest of society in terms of the power dynamics and that can be dangerous.

When you speak of physical pleasure & pain only, you are missing a critical aspect of BDSM for many. That is, the psychological aspect of D/s. It seems to me that as long as we live under the system that exists, it is better to educate folks about SSC rather than try to get them not to do it. Because they'll do it anyway, only without any idea of how to do it safely & consensually. That is the reason that "rogue" BDSM exists now - people are shamed into hiding their desires.

People are going to have sex no matter what you do. People are going to have every form of sexual relations that you can imagine, and a lot that you can't imagine, whether we approve of it or not. Believe me, there are a lot of practices that totally squick me. But people (especially women) are a lot more likely to get hurt if they have no knowledge of SSC for BDSM or any other type of sexual activity.

I guess that I'm just vehemently disagreeing w/ your assertion that, "...it's a net negative influence..." has anything to do w/ BDSM itself. It has to do with education about sex and sexuality and what is okay and what isn't.

"Rogue" BDSM as a term doesn't really work for me, no more than "rogue missionary sex" works. What you are really asking for, I guess, is that BDSM be accepted by the mainstream so that it can be openly discussed. I would say that the BDSM community is doing its part to make it so.

But I've rambled and gone off topic and, undoubtedly, misunderstood at least half of what you have written.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-14 12:39 am UTC (link)
I think you understood the bulk of it, and I think you even got the sense of my beliefs correct.

My only (remaining!) response to what you wrote is that the existence of a thing called "BDSM" which its advocates say is "good" creates space in which people who don't have "good" intentions do bad things. You think it isn't the fault of BDSM, and I disagree. I disagree strongly enough that I think the only responsible course of action is for all BDSM, and especially for all defensive statements about BDSM, to stop, until the public can be educated about what is BDSM and what is physical and psychological abuse.

I do think we are in agreement on one key point -- and that is that BDSM needs to be openly discussed. My guess is that the day after that starts a lot of women are going to call the police when their male partners don't respect their safe words or don't feel they have to respect words like "No" and "Stop".

As missing anything, although I do type fairly quickly, I don't cover everything. My former partner who was a professional domme did explain quite a bit about BDSM (mostly D/s, though, in her case), but I didn't feel the need to explain all I know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]alephnul
2006-01-14 09:35 am UTC (link)
To my mind, the problem with this idea (stop all BDSM until people know how it should properly be done) is that BDSM practices exist outside of SSC BDSM communities, and are not controllable by SSC BDSM communities, except through publicizing the concept of SSC BDSM. The only thing that can educate the public about the concept of SSC BDSM, and how it differs from abusive BDSM, is the SSC BDSM community. The emphasis on the community is because the community is the tool by which non-community BDSMers learn the concepts of SSC. It is also the way that people who eroticize power can easily find others who are compatible, rather than cajoling their non-BDSM partners into putting on the hand cuffs.

Defensive and self congratulatory comments about BDSM, and a frequent failure of concept that results in talking favorably about BDSM, instead of talking favorably about SSC BDSM, I agree are a problem, but I also think that formal BDSM pales as a problem compared to the covert BDSM of gendered vanilla romantic sexuality.

Of my female sexual partners, roughly half have ranged between not liking penetrative vaginal sex to being physically incapable of it. Only one of my partners who didn't like penetrative vaginal sex was reasonably comfortable with her preference for not having penetrative vaginal sex. One other partner had penetrative vaginal sex even though she didn't like it, and 2 others felt guilty and ashamed of not being able to have penetrative vaginal sex.

I'm told my experience in this is fairly typical. Roughly half of all women don't like vaginal sex, but an over whelming majority of het women have it anyway, because they believe it is what they are supposed to like. Is that D/s or S/M, I can't make up my mind, but it is certainly more pervasive than formal scening.

Libertine and supremacist arguments for BDSM ("it is a more honest expression of the universal eroticization of power" and "why are you so inhibited, you should free yourself from your inhibitions") are a real problem as well, as they don't even try to teach SSC. And I do understand your argument that even an SSC BDSM community proponent may serve more as a proponent of BDSM of any form, than of SSC BDSM, particularly 2nd or 3rd hand, but I am not convinced that it is true. It makes me wish that the Kinsey Institute hadn't been driven out of existence. 50 years of snapshot and longitudinal studies of sexual practice would be a wonderful help in determining if the SSC BDSM movement has made more existing BDSM activity SSC, or if it has encouraged more non-SSC BDSM than it has converted non-SSC to SSC.

Lacking that knowledge, I think that SSC BDSM proponents should be humble and should be more concerned with emphasizing SSC than with emphasizing BDSM, but I think they still probably do more good than harm.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Your Kink is not my kink
[info]skelkins
2006-01-17 02:29 am UTC (link)
Roughly half of all women don't like vaginal sex, but an overwhelming majority of het women have it anyway, because they believe it is what they are supposed to like....

Libertine and supremacist arguments for BDSM ("it is a more honest expression of the universal eroticization of power" and "why are you so inhibited, you should free yourself from your inhibitions") are a real problem as well, as they don't even try to teach SSC.

I'm surprised that you didn't draw a direct connection between these two statements, since as I see it, those very same "libertine and supremacist arguments" are precisely the same ones responsible for so many het women feeling guilty and shamed over not enjoying penetrative sex.

This is one of the reasons that I am so suspicious of (and at times even trigger-happy hostile to) all universalizing statements about sexuality and eroticism. This is a feminist issue. Women are, historically, the ones who have been told what they are "supposed" to find erotically satisfying -- and it has not been to our benefit.

"If you don't like it, it's because you're inhibited," and "you just haven't matured enough to realize that you like it yet" are both rather familiar statements, even outside of the realm of BDSM discussion. Immature clitoral vs. mature vaginal orgasm, anyone?

When I react badly to, say, Chip Delaney's abstruse explanations of why he believes that his own personal kink is actually everyone else's universal kink (even if, poor benighted souls that they are, they just can't see it as clearly as he can), my rage may seem irrational, but there are centuries of women's history underlying and feeding it. I've had enough of other people presuming to tell me what I find sexy, and in the process of doing so, implicitly showing that they believe their theoretical musings to trump my own actual, personal experience.

I realize that I am perhaps idiosyncratic in responding to "everyone eroticizes power and this is why" as if I've just been handed yet another defense of the "mature vaginal orgasm," but since I don't eroticize power dynamics in the way that people keep implying that "everyone" does, I have to say that it comes across as pretty much the same thing to me.

I don't have a problem with other people's kinks. I do have a problem with being told that they must be my kinks too.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: (Dragster, take two)
[info]jakesquid
2006-01-14 08:45 pm UTC (link)
My only (remaining!) response to what you wrote is that the existence of a thing called "BDSM" which its advocates say is "good" creates space in which people who don't have "good" intentions do bad things.

...I think the only responsible course of action is for all BDSM, and especially for all defensive statements about BDSM, to stop, until the public can be educated about what is BDSM and what is physical and psychological abuse.


And here is the issue on which we will never agree. I think that you can make this statement about almost any human activity. Violence in movies/videogames, skydiving, and on and on. I just don't see it as a workable solution - people will do any of those things anyway. They will just be more secretive about it and have less chance of being educated about it.

But thanks for your responses, I think I have a better understanding of your position.

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[info]furrycatherder
2006-01-13 04:32 am UTC (link)
Hey, I just bought it for the leg room! Seriously!

My girlfriend at the time I bought it swore I just bought it to pick up other women. So far I've only been seriously approached by men. The local dykery enjoys riding in it, and I've come really, really close to having carnal relations with one woman I exceeded posted speed limits by, uh, about 60MPH. But mostly it doesn't seem to work as a giant phallus subtitute.

And at 14MPG it isn't exactly cheap to operate ...

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[info]telepresence
2006-08-11 06:08 pm UTC (link)
See, that particular bodystyle (mid to late 70's) of Corvette always struck me as female. It's very curvy, although that pic doesn't necessarily show it off as well as it might.

For pure penismobile, I always felt the "winner" (?) was the Jaguar XKE

Back in high school, a friend of mine purchased a Mustang, convinced that it would be, in his words, "a chick magnet". Soon after he took posession, we went driving in it, and found to our 16 year old dismay that it was mostly a middle aged guy magnet. Many of those admiring men saying to us variations on "Niice! This has got to be a total chick magnet, am I right?"

Sigh. He sold it a year later.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]alephnul
2006-08-12 07:38 am UTC (link)
Hi!

I've seen you around various places (13th colony, storygames forum, nostalgia_lj's lj) and have always liked what you have to say. Thus, why I friended you (in my recent friending flurry), thus, probably, why you wandered by.

I really need to put up something more recent and more relevant to where I've mostly been hanging out recently (Dr Who fandom mostly)...

I just looked up the Jag XKE (I'm not much of a car person) and that is totally the pure penismobile.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Speaking of being productive and nuanced
[info]vinnie_tesla
2006-01-22 07:32 pm UTC (link)
After carefully reading and thinking about your entry and the follow-up remarks, I realized I'm missing an important part:

What are you calling for? Are you saying that we kinky people should change our behavior or thinking in some particular way? Or is your point completely abstract?

A confession: The reason I'm not listing things that I think you might be suggesting is that every possibility that comes to mind is repellant to the point that it would look like trolling if I were to say it explicitly. Eliminate them all, though, and I really can't see what's left.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Speaking of being productive and nuanced
[info]alephnul
2006-01-23 05:38 am UTC (link)
Actually, you're mostly missing that part because (particularly in this post) I was not calling for much at all. If you go over and read the Alas thread that this derives from, you might get a bit more of a sense of what I call for, but then again maybe not.

I don't care much for libertine or BDSM supremacist arguments for BDSM practice (I think they are both false and harmful), so I don't think people should make them.

I am in favor of proselytizing safe-sane-consensual practice, both within BDSM and within mainstream vanilla-romance culture.

I think that looking at the ways in which BDSM desire is a product of a patriarchal culture is worthwhile, so I think people should do that.

I think that the fetishization and sexualization of actual violence, abusive power, and pain are a problem in the culture at large, and I think looking for ways to decrease that in the culture at large are worthwhile. I think doing so would probably decrease the number of people who sexualize those things as BDSM practice, but I think that that is an acceptable side effect (but certainly not the main goal!).

What do I think that individual practitioners of BDSM should do? I think they should be at least as conscious of SSC principles as vanilla-romance people should be (which is vastly more conscious than vanilla-romance people generally are, and much more conscious than many BDSMers are). I think they should promulgate SSC concepts. Beyond that, not much.

Oh, yes, I think BDSMers should pay attention to skelkins suggestions, and not pretend that their own fetishes are universal, or claim that other people who aren't attracted by the BDSMers' fetishes are denying their true sexuality. But I suppose that is just a rephrasing of 'no BDSM supremacy.'

I'm not really sure why you thought that what I was saying needed to lead into demanding anything of kinky people.

Does the list above look repellent to you?

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Re: Speaking of being productive and nuanced
[info]alephnul
2006-01-23 05:39 am UTC (link)
Just because I'm curious, I was wondering how you ran across this? Do I know you from somewhere, or through a friend of a friend?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Dealing with the eroticization of power dynamics?
(Anonymous)
2006-02-01 08:25 am UTC (link)
Very interesting posts; I agree with you pretty much completely, Charles. (Btw, I found your blog from Alas.)

I had a friend long ago who explained to me that it offended her that her boyfriend (a better friend of mine) explicitly refused to be possessive, and while he was perfectly happy to be faithful if that was her preference, refused to request that she be monogamous. She explained to me that she actually usually cheated on her boyfriends, but that a non-possessive boyfriend was both insulting and meant that the cheating sex wouldn’t be nearly as a hot. While she was impressively honest, I really don’t believe her desires were at all strange for this culture.

I agree. My first girlfriend told me that I wasn't kissing her aggressively enough, and that when kissing a girl, I should not only avoid asking verbal permission, but I should also hold her head. I wasn't entirely comfortable with this, but I went along with it anyway because I didn't want to lose her.

Like with your friend, I don't think her tastes are at all unusual among women in our culture. In fact, it's been my impression that the majority of women eroticize submission/subordination. I've seen several studies finding that women are more attracted to men with dominant body language (I can dig these up, if you like).

The sexual attraction of most women to characteristics of dominance in men seems to maintain the oppression of women, especially because it is so often invisible in the norms of romance. For instance, it is often held that the man kissing the woman like the way my ex liked to be kissed (i.e. without asking permission, and by pulling her in or holding her head) is just the natural way that men should kiss women. Yet to someone like me who doesn't really eroticize dominance (though I've tried!), that type of kissing hardly seems "natural" at all, and actually feels very forced. It also broke the rapport between me and her because I would always be wondering in the back of my head "how do I know she really wants to be kissed?"

I think a big barrier to the goal of gender equality is that males who don't eroticize dominance by default, or who eroticize submission, will be pressured and encouraged into adopting dominant behaviors. Without behaving dominantly to some degree, those males will be considerably handicapped in the game of romance (considering the heavy male=dom, female=sub dynamics in romance). I think the hue and cry that "nice guys finish last" partially translates to "guys who don't eroticize dominance finish last."

Charles, have you heard of the Pickup and Seduction Community? Check out The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists by Neil Strauss. The Community is centered on the mASF (http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/guests) Forum on www.fastseduction.com . Check out this post (http://fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=6&mn=104443836559804) which summarizes a few of the general concepts in the Community. I think that one of the functions of the Community is to take men who don't eroticize domination or behave dominantly, and who escaped socialization into the male gender role, and train them to be socially and sexually dominant in order to attract women. The Community shares with a radical feminist critique the view that romance is full of D/s, and that those dynamics need to be uncovered and talked about. Of course, the difference is that the Community advocates capitalizing on those dynamics (because virtual celibacy is deemed to be the only alternative). Unfortunately, based on my experience, I can't say that the descriptive picture they draw of our culture and the desires of many women is wholely wrong.

I'm wondering, if indeed the majority of women eroticize male dominanation, what do you think is the solution for males who do not eroticize power dynamics and/or who are submissive themselves? Is there some alternative between dominance and celibacy? Perhaps some types of minimally dominant behavior are ok, while simultaneously rejecting more severe/abusive forms of dominant behavior? Or maybe there are legions of single women hiding somewhere who do not eroticize power dynamics or who are doms?

~ PaleCast

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Dealing with the eroticization of power dynamics?
[info]alephnul
2006-02-01 12:26 pm UTC (link)
I don't know. I agree with the basics of your analysis, and think the kissing example is a very good one, but I don't see any reason to think that there are fewer women who break their cultural D/s training than there are men who break their training. If anything, since real world D/s is much worse for women than for men, I would think that women would be a bit more likely to break their training. Admittedly, it is harder for members of any minority that has no significant group cohesion to find matching partners (that is, if you don't hang out in places where your minority position is common, then most people you are attracted to will not share your position, and women who do share your position will have exactly the same experience), so one solution is to look for group cohesion along this axis. That is to say, hang out with feminists, who, even if they may still eroticize power, are at least more likely to understand the issue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]amberite
2006-08-09 11:15 am UTC (link)
active consent and communication are themselves hot

When BDSM practitioners reach the point where they eroticize active consent and communication, they are actually moving into an egalitarian sexuality.

Well! Looks like I don't have to formulate my own argument-style response on the topic. Errata may, however, arrive at some later point.

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[info]alephnul
2006-08-12 07:43 am UTC (link)
Yup, this post was pretty much completely directed at people who argue that BDSM in and of itself is a better and more enlightened sexuality. I've got no problem with the idea that one can have a enlightened egalitarian sexuality that is also BDSM related/based, I just don't think that that is inherent, nor do I think that most people seek out a BDSM sexuality because of their desire to explore egalitarian sexuality (although some probably do, particularly since some parts of BDSM culture do at least think and talk actively about the nature and issues of active consent).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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