alephnul ([info]alephnul) wrote,

BDSM (reposted comment from Alas)

[This is a comment I wrote on a thread on BDSM and patriarchy on Alas, but I'm pretty pleased with it, and comments are a fragile thing, so I thought I'd repost it here as a well. I think it stands okay on its own, but here it is in context.]

Is BDSM better, equal-to, or worse than non-BDSM sexuality. Actually, that is a crappy way of phrasing it, and much less productive and nuanced than the way bean actually phrased it. Bean's point was much more complex than that, but I think I can say something useful with this simplified version, so here goes.

I think that BDSM sexuality, independent of any other criteria, is a more harmful sexuality than non-BDSM sexuality. Specifically, I think that an eroticization of mutuality is a better and healthier sexuality than an eroticization of power dynamics (power-over, powerlessness, violence and pain). Furthermore, while I can see other sources for an eroticization of power dynamics, I think the overwhelming source of the eroticization of power dynamics in this culture is patriarchy (actually, I think the triple alliance of sex oppression, class oppression and race oppression are heavily implicated, but sex oppression is most heavily implicated). I think that if you have, or are able to develop, a sexuality of mutuality, then you should value it highly. I think taking up BDSM practice because it is cool is a bad mistake if you have or are capable of developing a truly mutual sexuality. I think in the ideal world, there would be no eroticization of power dynamics, and no BDSM sexuality. I think in a moderately ideal world (one where people still suffer through a childhood of relative powerlessness (but not abuse), where people still suffer from painful diseases, where people still fear death and loss, but where sex, class, and race oppression is banished) that eroticization of power dynamics would be far more rare.

I think that the best safe-sane-consensual, active-consent, egalitarian-based BDSM sexuality is still a product of a sick culture, and I think anything less than that ideal is probably harmful to its participants.

That said, I think safe-sane-consensual BDSM practice is vastly better than the current alternative. If I eroticize power dynamics, I am going to play with them for sexual gratification. If I deny this desire, all I end up doing is pushing it underground. I’m still going to play those games, I’m just going to lie to myself and my partner and pretend that’s not what I’m doing. As a result, I’m going to have to play with the real thing, rather than being able to play with the fake thing. If I want a D/S experience, I will have to actually dominate or submit to someone. If I want a S/M experience, I will have to actually torture someone, or find someone to torture me (D/S is much more common in this culture, I think, but there are way too many sadists too, coming up with some excuse to inflict pain).

To my mind, this is what most people in this culture do. Most of them aren’t extreme in their practice, but I see the basic cultural construct of romance as implicit D/S, and I think most people who do romance do it in large part because they eroticize D/S.

I had a friend long ago who explained to me that it offended her that her boyfriend (a better friend of mine) explicitly refused to be possessive, and while he was perfectly happy to be faithful if that was her preference, refused to request that she be monogamous. She explained to me that she actually usually cheated on her boyfriends, but that a non-possessive boyfriend was both insulting and meant that the cheating sex wouldn’t be nearly as a hot. While she was impressively honest, I really don’t believe her desires were at all strange for this culture.

To my mind, she would have been better off if she hadn’t found betrayal and being a possession hot, but I think those structures of desire are hard to reconstruct. If she wasn’t able to reconstruct them, I think she would have been much better off accepting those desires as hers, accepting them as malign, and finding ways to funnel and restrict them, so that she could extract their hotness without getting as badly burned (and without burning her boyfriend). I think that safe-sane-consensual BDSM is a way of doing that.

I have met (to a little extent, I have been one) BDSM supremacists, who believe that BDSM sexuality is more honest than non-BDSM sexuality, because everyone’s sexuality is actually an eroticization of power dynamics. I think they have a point (I think most people in this culture do eroticize power to some degree), but I think they are basically wrong. I think honest egalitarian sexuality, for those who can reach it, is better than power dynamics sexuality. But I think safe-sane-consensual BDSM practice is a better, less harmful expression of eroticizing power dynamics than either non-SSC BDSM or implicit BDSM. And, for those who strongly eroticize power dynamics, I think that SSC BDSM may be either a useful end point, or a useful way point on the way to an egalitarian eroticization of mutuality.

This last point is one that both Thomas and mythago have expressed here and previously. Good SSC BDSM culture emphasizes the critical point that active consent and communication are themselves hot, and that sex that moves away from both of those is bad sex, and is not at all hot. When BDSM practitioners reach the point where they eroticize active consent and communication, they are actually moving into an egalitarian sexuality.

I’m going on way too long, so I’ll stop.

  • 44 comments

[info]kiplet

January 9 2006, 20:22:19 UTC 6 years ago

I never remember if you've read Delany's criticism or not.

[info]alephnul

January 9 2006, 20:47:18 UTC 6 years ago

I have.

I've read Shorter Views.

I've never read Longer Views or Times Square Red, Times Square Blue, which would probably be relevant as well.

I have read The Mad Man, which is certainly relevant.

[info]kiplet

January 10 2006, 08:46:35 UTC 6 years ago

It just seems to me that conceptualizing a sexuality wholly mutual that is separate from or on a different track than a sexuality conscious of power relations is, well, problematic. You don't, with the one hand, but you do, with the other, and your basic rhetorical structure.

Longer Views, not as much; Red and Blue, from a larger, societal, big-picture perspective. Mad Man I haven't myself read yet. Nor Hogg neither.

[info]alephnul

January 10 2006, 13:33:08 UTC 6 years ago

I don't know, I would prefer to think that it is possible. Its tricky, though. A sexuality that is not conscious of power dynamics is probably just a sexuality that pretends power dynamics don't exist, which I think is the worst of all worlds, particularly in an entrenched power dynamics rich society.

Okay, here it is: I think a sexuality that doesn't eroticize power dynamics is conceivable (I think there are people who have such a sexuality). That doesn't mean that they are blind to power dynamics, it doesn't mean that they never allow even the hint of power dynamics to be present in their sexual practice, it means that the power dynamics are not eroticized, that they are not sought out and amplified. It means that the frisson of sex comes from being so close to someone, or of giving freely to a complete stranger (I don't think an egalitarian erotic rules out Delaney's preference for quicky anonymous sex), rather than from viewing penetration as power over (for example). That penetration looses the hotness of implicit domination doesn't mean that penetration must be eschewed because it could be seen as domination, it doesn't mean ignoring that penetration has an inherent violative aspect. It just means that isn't what makes it hot.

Over on Alas, I commented that the fact that I don't eroticize household objects doesn't limit my sexuality, nor does it mean that I am blind to the potential uses of household objects. It just means that household objects in my sexual practice do not excite me for being household objects. Power is not the same as household objects, but I don't accept that power is the inherent fetish object.

Does that make sense?

[info]kiplet

January 11 2006, 06:26:39 UTC 6 years ago

It’s not that power dynamics are an inherent fetish object, it’s that power dynamics are an inherent part of human interaction. It’s the water we swim in. A sexuality that eroticizes anything will find that thing to have a power dynamic to it. That power dynamic does not have to be sought ought or amplified, no, but it’s still there; an awareness of it serves to focus the attention, and focussing attention is (one small) part of what it is fetishes do, no?

When I say it’s problematic, I don’t mean the idea of a wholly mutual sexuality is problematic; I mean it’s problematic to conceptualize it as a right-hand path, over and away and separate from the left-hand path of overtly eroticized power. It’s a fine and worthy goal, but you can reach it—well, it’s asymptotic, I think, so you can reach toward it—from many different directions.

I’m hardly a BDSM supremacist, myself; I tend to think of it as an experimental space, in which particular aspects of a chaotically contingent environment are carefully controlled: in these precisely delineated laboratory conditions, subject A will always respond to stimulus B in mode C... Masking slippery particular power dynamics with cartoonishly broad swipes at general power dynamics (or subversions thereof) lets some more easily leave the particular behind (leave the phenomenal and enter the sublime); grants some certainty, others license. There’s nothing inherent in that to keep one from realizing a wholly mutual sexuality.

Mostly, I’m thinking of “The Rhetoric of Sex/The Discourse of Desire,” from Shorter Views. (Also, the opening central conceit of the Neverÿon books.) —That treats with BDSM as a marginalized, other sexuality, and there’s a bit with an angry ventriloquized puppet that I’ve quoted before, which is pissed off to a certain extent that an erotic built around power could ever be tamed, or maybe I should say assimilated. —I’m also thinking of this passage:

The power involved in desire is so great that when caught in an actual rhetorical manifestation of desire—a particular sex act, say—it is sometimes all but impossible to untangle the complex webs of power that shoot through it from various directions, the power relations that are the act and that constitute it.

Which, well, yeah. That’s the welter the clarity of BDSM controls and tames: and I’m sitting here on the verge of an RPG analogy—whether you play as you’ve always played because that’s the way you play, or whether you openly and forthrightly negotiate the rules together, beforehand or as you go, or whether you even play at all. —It’s getting late.

[info]alephnul

January 11 2006, 08:39:09 UTC 6 years ago

On the RPG side, which I think is certainly valid (Sarah has been talking about sexuality as narrative, I keep trying to convince her to write it up and post it somewhere), have you read Mo's piece on push and pull as game play structures? I think it is relevant.

Eroticizing power dynamics (power-over, powerlessness, violence, pain) is like focusing your gaming on push dynamics, eroticizing power-to dynamics (communication, intimacy, invitation, shared pleasure) is like focusing your games on pull dynamics.

[info]skelkins

6 years ago

[info]alephnul

6 years ago

[info]skelkins

6 years ago

Anonymous

6 years ago

Anonymous

6 years ago

[info]alephnul

6 years ago

[info]skelkins

6 years ago

[info]alephnul

6 years ago

[info]alephnul

January 10 2006, 13:34:47 UTC 6 years ago

Also, its been a while since I read Shorter Views, so if it feels like I'm missing your point, I may be missing the reference. Please feel very free to remind me more specifically if I'm not getting it.

[info]sinboy

January 12 2006, 16:22:23 UTC 6 years ago

Just logging over from Amp's blog. This is "Josh Jasper". Thanks for all of the good comments.

[info]alephnul

January 13 2006, 00:08:50 UTC 6 years ago

Glad you like them!

[info]furrycatherder

January 12 2006, 23:18:36 UTC 6 years ago

And this is, uh, do I have to say who I am?

Couldn't y'all just figure it out?

[info]alephnul

January 13 2006, 00:09:24 UTC 6 years ago

Is it just me, or is that one seriously phallic sports car?

[info]jakesquid

January 13 2006, 04:03:22 UTC 6 years ago

If I have my recollections recollected rightly, that is THE penis car of all penis (sports) cars. Anyhow, I can't think of a penisier one right now.

[info]furrycatherder

January 13 2006, 04:34:46 UTC 6 years ago

I don't know if Corvettes are "the" penis car. I can tell you that it's 27 years old and leaks in the rain.

So ... it's pretty impressive, but even you could own one :)

[info]jakesquid

January 13 2006, 14:35:26 UTC 6 years ago

Hey, my memory isn't all bad. I thought it was a 70's corvette, but the photo is small & I wasn't sure. It beats out the camaro for penisness, that's for sure. If it leaks in the rain, I'm guessing that it's a t-top. The camaro that my wife had w/ t-top also leaked in the rain. I suppose it leaked in the dry, too, but it was harder to tell when it was dry & sunny.

[info]furrycatherder

January 13 2006, 15:43:45 UTC 6 years ago

(Dragster, take two)

(Images were too big, so I'm going to try again ...)

I thought I had a photo of my Corvette over on Photobucket, but all I have is a photo of Shirely Muldowney's dragster. Which I'm going to use to make some comments about "power" and how it's constructed. And also to feed the overall lust for images of penis cars that seems to exist :)

Here's her dragster. I had the privilege to watch her drive it about 300MPH once. Which was very cool --
Image hosted by Photobucket.com


And here she is. She's autographing something for me (I think it was an 8x10 photo of her and her car, but I haven't seen it around the house in about 20 years ...) --
Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Apropos the topic, I think that "cars" show how power is socially constructed. That me driving a Corvette has an entirely different meaning that a man driving a Corvette. And me driving a Corvette I paid $9,200 for somehow has the same power / status as someone like me driving a $50,000 Corvette.

I think that this is what feminists-opposed-to-BDSM are about. If Shirley or I derive, or don't derive, "power" from something that's really not that unique -- because a $9,200 Corvette isn't all that hard to acquire, assuming one is willing to put up with leaking T-Tops -- then what is "power", really?

Indeed, my reaction to BDSM, even as opposed to BDSM as I am, is more like "why don't they grow up and quit playing the sexual equivalent of ``cops and robbers''"? What is BDSM besides a fantasy role playing game? On the other hand, perhaps I'm jealous because I don't have sexual fantasies. I mean, even if I try to fantasize, I can't.

Over on Alas I briefly wrote about a former lover who once managed to tie me up. Rather than feeling that I'd given up any power, I felt like all I'd managed to do was waste time having my hands tied when I could have just as easily held onto the headboard of the bed. Which, when other women would suggest they tie me up is what I'd do. It's not an accident that I now have a four-poster bed.

[info]jakesquid

6 years ago

[info]jakesquid

6 years ago

[info]alephnul

6 years ago

[info]skelkins

6 years ago

[info]jakesquid

6 years ago

[info]furrycatherder

January 13 2006, 04:32:55 UTC 6 years ago

Hey, I just bought it for the leg room! Seriously!

My girlfriend at the time I bought it swore I just bought it to pick up other women. So far I've only been seriously approached by men. The local dykery enjoys riding in it, and I've come really, really close to having carnal relations with one woman I exceeded posted speed limits by, uh, about 60MPH. But mostly it doesn't seem to work as a giant phallus subtitute.

And at 14MPG it isn't exactly cheap to operate ...

[info]telepresence

August 11 2006, 18:08:39 UTC 5 years ago

See, that particular bodystyle (mid to late 70's) of Corvette always struck me as female. It's very curvy, although that pic doesn't necessarily show it off as well as it might.

For pure penismobile, I always felt the "winner" (?) was the Jaguar XKE

Back in high school, a friend of mine purchased a Mustang, convinced that it would be, in his words, "a chick magnet". Soon after he took posession, we went driving in it, and found to our 16 year old dismay that it was mostly a middle aged guy magnet. Many of those admiring men saying to us variations on "Niice! This has got to be a total chick magnet, am I right?"

Sigh. He sold it a year later.

[info]alephnul

August 12 2006, 07:38:45 UTC 5 years ago

Hi!

I've seen you around various places (13th colony, storygames forum, nostalgia_lj's lj) and have always liked what you have to say. Thus, why I friended you (in my recent friending flurry), thus, probably, why you wandered by.

I really need to put up something more recent and more relevant to where I've mostly been hanging out recently (Dr Who fandom mostly)...

I just looked up the Jag XKE (I'm not much of a car person) and that is totally the pure penismobile.

[info]vinnie_tesla

January 22 2006, 19:32:40 UTC 6 years ago

Speaking of being productive and nuanced

After carefully reading and thinking about your entry and the follow-up remarks, I realized I'm missing an important part:

What are you calling for? Are you saying that we kinky people should change our behavior or thinking in some particular way? Or is your point completely abstract?

A confession: The reason I'm not listing things that I think you might be suggesting is that every possibility that comes to mind is repellant to the point that it would look like trolling if I were to say it explicitly. Eliminate them all, though, and I really can't see what's left.

[info]alephnul

January 23 2006, 05:38:28 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Speaking of being productive and nuanced

Actually, you're mostly missing that part because (particularly in this post) I was not calling for much at all. If you go over and read the Alas thread that this derives from, you might get a bit more of a sense of what I call for, but then again maybe not.

I don't care much for libertine or BDSM supremacist arguments for BDSM practice (I think they are both false and harmful), so I don't think people should make them.

I am in favor of proselytizing safe-sane-consensual practice, both within BDSM and within mainstream vanilla-romance culture.

I think that looking at the ways in which BDSM desire is a product of a patriarchal culture is worthwhile, so I think people should do that.

I think that the fetishization and sexualization of actual violence, abusive power, and pain are a problem in the culture at large, and I think looking for ways to decrease that in the culture at large are worthwhile. I think doing so would probably decrease the number of people who sexualize those things as BDSM practice, but I think that that is an acceptable side effect (but certainly not the main goal!).

What do I think that individual practitioners of BDSM should do? I think they should be at least as conscious of SSC principles as vanilla-romance people should be (which is vastly more conscious than vanilla-romance people generally are, and much more conscious than many BDSMers are). I think they should promulgate SSC concepts. Beyond that, not much.

Oh, yes, I think BDSMers should pay attention to skelkins suggestions, and not pretend that their own fetishes are universal, or claim that other people who aren't attracted by the BDSMers' fetishes are denying their true sexuality. But I suppose that is just a rephrasing of 'no BDSM supremacy.'

I'm not really sure why you thought that what I was saying needed to lead into demanding anything of kinky people.

Does the list above look repellent to you?

[info]alephnul

January 23 2006, 05:39:44 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Speaking of being productive and nuanced

Just because I'm curious, I was wondering how you ran across this? Do I know you from somewhere, or through a friend of a friend?

Anonymous

February 1 2006, 08:25:20 UTC 6 years ago

Dealing with the eroticization of power dynamics?

Very interesting posts; I agree with you pretty much completely, Charles. (Btw, I found your blog from Alas.)

I had a friend long ago who explained to me that it offended her that her boyfriend (a better friend of mine) explicitly refused to be possessive, and while he was perfectly happy to be faithful if that was her preference, refused to request that she be monogamous. She explained to me that she actually usually cheated on her boyfriends, but that a non-possessive boyfriend was both insulting and meant that the cheating sex wouldn’t be nearly as a hot. While she was impressively honest, I really don’t believe her desires were at all strange for this culture.

I agree. My first girlfriend told me that I wasn't kissing her aggressively enough, and that when kissing a girl, I should not only avoid asking verbal permission, but I should also hold her head. I wasn't entirely comfortable with this, but I went along with it anyway because I didn't want to lose her.

Like with your friend, I don't think her tastes are at all unusual among women in our culture. In fact, it's been my impression that the majority of women eroticize submission/subordination. I've seen several studies finding that women are more attracted to men with dominant body language (I can dig these up, if you like).

The sexual attraction of most women to characteristics of dominance in men seems to maintain the oppression of women, especially because it is so often invisible in the norms of romance. For instance, it is often held that the man kissing the woman like the way my ex liked to be kissed (i.e. without asking permission, and by pulling her in or holding her head) is just the natural way that men should kiss women. Yet to someone like me who doesn't really eroticize dominance (though I've tried!), that type of kissing hardly seems "natural" at all, and actually feels very forced. It also broke the rapport between me and her because I would always be wondering in the back of my head "how do I know she really wants to be kissed?"

I think a big barrier to the goal of gender equality is that males who don't eroticize dominance by default, or who eroticize submission, will be pressured and encouraged into adopting dominant behaviors. Without behaving dominantly to some degree, those males will be considerably handicapped in the game of romance (considering the heavy male=dom, female=sub dynamics in romance). I think the hue and cry that "nice guys finish last" partially translates to "guys who don't eroticize dominance finish last."

Charles, have you heard of the Pickup and Seduction Community? Check out The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists by Neil Strauss. The Community is centered on the mASF (http://www.fastseduction.com/discussion/guests) Forum on www.fastseduction.com . Check out this post (http://fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=6&mn=104443836559804) which summarizes a few of the general concepts in the Community. I think that one of the functions of the Community is to take men who don't eroticize domination or behave dominantly, and who escaped socialization into the male gender role, and train them to be socially and sexually dominant in order to attract women. The Community shares with a radical feminist critique the view that romance is full of D/s, and that those dynamics need to be uncovered and talked about. Of course, the difference is that the Community advocates capitalizing on those dynamics (because virtual celibacy is deemed to be the only alternative). Unfortunately, based on my experience, I can't say that the descriptive picture they draw of our culture and the desires of many women is wholely wrong.

I'm wondering, if indeed the majority of women eroticize male dominanation, what do you think is the solution for males who do not eroticize power dynamics and/or who are submissive themselves? Is there some alternative between dominance and celibacy? Perhaps some types of minimally dominant behavior are ok, while simultaneously rejecting more severe/abusive forms of dominant behavior? Or maybe there are legions of single women hiding somewhere who do not eroticize power dynamics or who are doms?

~ PaleCast

[info]alephnul

February 1 2006, 12:26:51 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Dealing with the eroticization of power dynamics?

I don't know. I agree with the basics of your analysis, and think the kissing example is a very good one, but I don't see any reason to think that there are fewer women who break their cultural D/s training than there are men who break their training. If anything, since real world D/s is much worse for women than for men, I would think that women would be a bit more likely to break their training. Admittedly, it is harder for members of any minority that has no significant group cohesion to find matching partners (that is, if you don't hang out in places where your minority position is common, then most people you are attracted to will not share your position, and women who do share your position will have exactly the same experience), so one solution is to look for group cohesion along this axis. That is to say, hang out with feminists, who, even if they may still eroticize power, are at least more likely to understand the issue.

[info]amberite

August 9 2006, 11:15:42 UTC 5 years ago

active consent and communication are themselves hot

When BDSM practitioners reach the point where they eroticize active consent and communication, they are actually moving into an egalitarian sexuality.

Well! Looks like I don't have to formulate my own argument-style response on the topic. Errata may, however, arrive at some later point.

[info]alephnul

August 12 2006, 07:43:00 UTC 5 years ago

Yup, this post was pretty much completely directed at people who argue that BDSM in and of itself is a better and more enlightened sexuality. I've got no problem with the idea that one can have a enlightened egalitarian sexuality that is also BDSM related/based, I just don't think that that is inherent, nor do I think that most people seek out a BDSM sexuality because of their desire to explore egalitarian sexuality (although some probably do, particularly since some parts of BDSM culture do at least think and talk actively about the nature and issues of active consent).
  • 44 comments
Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Facebook Twitter More login options
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…